Childhood...?
If I were to write Apollo's childhood with Daichi based from Dual Destinies, where should I put it and what should be the header? Or should I not write it... yet? Because it's really a big spoiler...
~(AdventureWriter28)~•~(Talk)~•~(Edit Count)~
- Depending on the content, it could be fitted into the early life section. One thing to do could be to divide the section into two subsections, one about the situation with his parents (4-4) and the other about his childhood. An alternative is to use "Main articles: [case articles]" to signal which cases the early life section goes into. Or maybe do both. capefeather (talk) 15:28, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I added it but... I don't know if I made a good summary... ~(AdventureWriter28)~•~(Talk)~•~(Edit Count)~
Voice Actor
Has there ever been a record (on this wiki) of Apollo's English VA from his debut game? It seems only Acaba is listed here.... Schiffy (T|C) 18:52, October 31, 2013 (UTC)
Height
So uh... Did the height change or something? I'm pretty sure the height given in the GS4 official guidebook stands unless it's been overturned by another official source. capefeather (talk) 15:34, November 21, 2013 (UTC)
Dual Destinies Artwork
Do we have any Dual Destinies artwork for Apollo in bigger resolution? Obviously, without the bangane and Clay's jacket, that is... - Sligneris (talk) 13:33, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
One off nicknames
Is it me or has he been called a greenhorn? Apollojustice4all (talk) 23:24, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
About the recent editing
I understand and care a lot about excessive info on a page. That said, since my copyedit, the page has only gotten longer, not just due to concessions but also occasionally due to reversions of the personality section. The parts of the bio considered "excessive" frequently turn out to be single sentences or pairs of sentences, while in the personality section, redundancies keep being re-added. I don't know, personally I feel that stuff like a major reason for Apollo's suspicion of Athena should be noted and described in his bio. I'm also not sure why the "serious about his job" aspect keeps being separated from the "cares about his clients and allies" aspect, since they're connected and not opposed at all. I also understand that we should be careful not to portray Apollo in an excessively negative light, but considering he's quite possibly the most complex and ambiguous protagonist in the series, the flaws in his character should be embraced. capefeather (talk) 01:02, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
- Look Capefeather, I have nothing but the deepest respect for you. But this is a wiki not an encylcopedia. We don't need to cram everything into the article. Now that said I do in fact think it should not be a simple summary, but rather somewhere bewteen a ten page essay and a simple summary (Sorry it's hard to explain) Basically we need to find the balance between over explaining and under explaining with a fair margin. Trust me I don't want to get into an arguement but I still think the previous version was ok. And I am sorry if you feel different.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 01:38, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
- You say, "We don't need to cram everything into the article," but that's kind of what you've been doing to the personality section. I managed to reorganize the part above the Klavier relationship to three paragraphs when before it was four. The main problem was that (again) the aspect about Apollo being serious about his job was treated as a separate thing from the aspect about Apollo caring about his allies. Apollo is a lawyer; the two aspects are intimately connected (at least in Ace Attorney logic). I also initially thought that perhaps the section should be introduced using comparisons to Phoenix, but that I feel ended up scattering related aspects of Apollo's character. I feel that my last revision organizes everything in a more sane way, talking about each aspect of Apollo's character in turn.
- As for the bio, we should at least give enough context for people to know what the bio's talking about without having to look stuff up. Initially, I added a mention of the dark age of the law to the early life section, so that the mention at the end wouldn't come out of nowhere. I'm not sure at this point whether the dark age should be mentioned or not, but I think that it only makes sense for either both mentions or neither mention to be included. The same goes with the lighter and the jacket; Apollo finds out that the "decisive evidence" was forged, and then he ditches the jacket along with the bandages. I feel that these are important to mention if we're to mention them at all, and both are important for being part of Apollo's character development. capefeather (talk) 03:16, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
- I object! The bio was fine and the exact same information could be inferred, so i thought it would be best to condence it just a smidge. That being said, your most current version (in other words the previous version was about ok when it came to the personality. Again the your version, at parts, were simply longer forms of the exact same information. And despite both being good, since there was nothing wrong i swiched it back. (Sometimes shorter versions are ok too).
- Now I do request that we along with the rest of the wiki, work on something. Namely the whole "Justice has matured greatly in his role as a defense attorney, being able to stand up to Simon Blackquill effectively and providing valuable support to Athena when it was her turn to head the defense's bench" buisness. In the paragraph you put it in it seems out of place but it seems out of place no matter where i put it so we should find a way to make it more fluent without being either too choppy or too long.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 20:39, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you're using the undo function in a "lazy" way without looking at everything it undoes, because right now it seems like you haven't listened to anything I said, at least concerning the bio. I guess the dark age of the law should be mentioned, then? But with that one mention it just comes out of nowhere. capefeather (talk) 22:55, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
Just to be more specific, do you or do you not agree with the following:
- Apollo sheds both his bandages and Terran's jacket
- Athena is the defendant and doesn't actually go to the defense's bench during the phantom confrontation until later on
- The lighter and the revelation that it's forged evidence are important to Apollo's character relative to Athena
- The dark age of the law should be mentioned earlier on instead of just being mentioned out of nowhere at the end of the bio
- People tease Apollo a lot
capefeather (talk) 23:04, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
- Not entirely necessary so probably not
- Not needed (fine the way it is)
- not really
- would be smart
- if absolutely necessary
- I'm all for fun facts but one of my pet peeves is droning out information.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 00:20, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- I'm assuming you mean it's not important, rather than that it didn't happen (because obviously it did). If it's not important then why even mention ditching the bandages?
- If we're to mention Apollo joining the defense's bench at all, the implication that Athena is there is false. Maybe we could just mention that he joined the defense's bench?
- I think you agree that at least Athena's arrest should be mentioned, as well as the fact that it formed a big part of Apollo's suspicions. But even just mentioning that, should that point not be resolved? Even the "phantom escape route" explanation doesn't make the evidence that started all this in the first place go away.
- Okay.
- I don't know why you think that Apollo being teased a lot is just a "fun fact". A lot of character personality sections have more trivial "fun facts", including Apollo's page itself!
capefeather (talk) 00:49, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- The former: And i think the people can infer Apollo took off the coat as well.
- I honestly son't find it wrong to say that Justice "joined his friends in court" because he did. Regarding Athena she also joined the bench so there is no fault from where I am standing. (Again we don't need to tell every little detail)
- It is mentioned! Everything is mentioned! Maybe not as fluently as you would like but we can work on that.
- Good.
- I never said that!
- (This area is for separte opinions.)
- I'm sorry if I'm being rude, really I am, but I am having a long week and I literally have to stop homework so I don't exhaust myself. And I know it won't change my attitude but i have to tell you, when I am stressed I get irratated pretty easily.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 01:06, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- I think you're thinking from the perspective of someone who's already played the game. And sure, people who read these articles have probably already played the game and are just looking for info they forgot. But then why mention trivial but easily remembered things in the first place? You're missing my original point that if we're mentioning the bandages, we might as well mention the jacket as well. Neither is overly important in the grand scheme of things, but it's nice because it symbolizes Apollo's reversion of character. And again, with the third bullet, my point is that things shouldn't just be mentioned in an incomplete manner. The whole hubbub about Athena getting arrested matters to Apollo only if the lighter incriminating her does. Do you disagree with this? capefeather (talk) 01:46, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
So yeah, with my latest edit:
- I've removed the mention of him removing his bandages
- The end of the bio now just says he rejoined the defense's bench
- I've removed all references to Athena being arrested, because without the lighter it's just tangential
- The dark age of the law is mentioned to have been partially started by Phoenix's disbarment
I've also reorganized the personality section again. The three paragraphs talk about how
- Apollo is serious and tries to build his self-confidence only to be teased but
- he has matured and become a valuable friend and ally and
- he's determined and cares about his friends.
capefeather (talk) 02:18, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- OK Capefeather for the most part i was ok with the edits. Now I'll be honest I am not totally satisfied with the personality section but in all fairness it is ok. Really the only major problem I had with it was the fact that you removed all hints of Athena being arrested. Now as you know, I do not like droning out information, however I can not and Will not stand for blatant ignoring of vital facts! So I changed that part back, because let's face it without that information it just sounds like Apollo was the one who soley accused Athena of being Clay's killer.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 19:31, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- But it's not vital to Apollo's story. It's not actually about him at all. Neither his actions nor Aura's actually change without it. So it's about Athena. If we talk about why Apollo suspects Athena, and use the arrest/evidence as an additional reason for this to be so, then it becomes about Apollo and then that reason should actually be resolved. I'm just trying to be consistent here because there just seems to be no logic behind this argument about what's important and what's not, and so I don't find it all that productive. capefeather (talk) 20:52, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- Wait now I'm confused. Are we agreeing or not. Either way we shouldn't make it sound like Apollo was the one who accused Athena in the first place.Franzyfan1998 (talk) 20:58, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
He does accuse Athena. Whether the courts also accuse Athena is immaterial, unless the "decisive evidence" is mentioned. And if the "decisive evidence" is mentioned, then we should also mention when it's discredited. I think since Athena's page talks about it, Apollo's page should as well. capefeather (talk) 21:14, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
- Oh I get it! But still we shouldn't make it sound like Athena wasn't arrested for Clay's murder than Apollo accused her. Anyway I still don't totally agree but I think I've come up with the solution getting help from Athena's page!Franzyfan1998 (talk) 21:33, October 21, 2014 (UTC)
Sectioning
So is there any particular reason as to why the SoJ part of the bio gets its own section? It seems to make more sense to me to absorb the SoJ section into the law career section as a bunch of subsections, like the other games. Alternatively, is there a reason to split the law career section up into multiple sections? For some context: Other major characters' bios have been split up according to major changes in their careers, or large time skips, rather than by game. Miles Edgeworth's bio is a good example of this. (For that matter, perhaps Phoenix Wright's DD and SoJ sections should be merged as well?) capefeather (talk) 23:38, June 20, 2016 (UTC)
I think its most likely because SoJ is more self-centered on Apollo than Phoenix. In the last case, it's really mainly about Apollo since he meets his dad, Druk, after such a long time.PotatoPlayer (talk) 23:43, June 20, 2016 (UTC)
Tbh, I really don't know how to section parts off, and the reason I did it this way is because yes, SoJ IS focused so much on Apollo. It's not just his law career there, but also him facing his past, whereas the previous sections haven't really DONE that too much. (on an aside, I did the same thing with Trucy because literally her role is completely different in SoJ compared to DD and she gets so much more characterisation this time around I figured she needed the new section.) ~ FenriDarkWolf ~ (talk) 09:53, June 21, 2016 (UTC)
Even if it is about him facing his past, does that warrant having a different section even while the rest of the bio is bunched up into one section? It seems like an arbitrary elevation of one aspect of Apollo's life (his complicated family dynamic) over other aspects (e.g. his career, his best friend). Besides, Edgeworth faces an incident from his past in 1-4, but that's still part of the period of "early law career" up to his quitting before JFA. Phoenix's "law career" section spans his whole trilogy with separate subsections for cases that are particularly important to him. Phoenix and Edgeworth have long histories as lawyers with major career shifts, so it makes sense to section their bios off into "epochs" each covering multiple games. Apollo doesn't really have that. capefeather (talk) 21:15, June 21, 2016 (UTC)
Nayuta and Druk's relation to Apollo
So far, I think Apollo's relation to Druk and Nayuta should be a bit more clarified, technically he wasn't "officially" adopted as Druk was a criminal at that time. So what would be a proper title for the two? "Unofficial" adoptive father & brother? I can't think of a proper added title for now.
-Edit: Also source of information is here: [spiritofgs4]
-- Gramaryes m e s s a g e p e r c e i v e 14:16, June 28, 2016 (UTC)
Druk wasnt a "criminal" at the time. This was before Garan became queen and defense attorney-less trials became common law in Khura'in.PotatoPlayer (talk) 02:42, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, he still wasn't properly able to adopt him since Sousuke just died in the fire and Druk was blamed and the trial happened and he was found guilty because of Garan, thus there was no time for Druk to "properly" adopt Apollo either and the days after that, he was found as a criminal.
Gramaryes m e s s a g e p e r c e i v e 09:38, June 29, 2016 (UTC)
Recent edits have gotten me to look, and from the artbook, it says Apollo and Nahyuta are old friends and nothing more . Druk was a father figure, but there was never formal adoption due to the.. y'know... Druk being a wanted criminal. ~ FenriDarkWolf ~ (talk) 05:05, September 8, 2016 (UTC)
Look it's been stated in game and this wiki that Dhurke was at least Apollo's foster father. Can we please change their relationship!Franzyfan1998 (talk) 07:40, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
I've finished the game myself too, and they do out right state on multiple occasions that Dhurke is his foster father. They also refer to Nahyuta as Apollo's brother several times. The problem here is that you're kind of running things here too much on your own logic, rather then just going with what the game's have outright stated. If they've outright called them Apollo's foster father and his brother, I don't see what the problem with putting them as such on here is. 94.193.119.106 08:51, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
The art book is contradicting that.
15:34, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
Artbook, or the actual game. Which are you going to believe more? I'd certainly hope you'd believe the actual game more. TaylorHyuuga (talk) 15:41, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
The thing is... there's no way they could even be legally related, since Dhurke was a fugitive on the run, he wouldn't be able to legally adopt Apollo. Saying is one thing, but having the father-figure be a fugitive means that there's no legalities about it. (by the by, I'm pretty sure everything written in the art book is made by the Japanese development team) ~ FenriDarkWolf ~ (talk) 17:36, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
It was an obvious choice they made in the localization to change things up though, so it still stands. Once again, I repeat; You're basing it too much on your own logic. Pardon the obvious comparision, but if we were in court and we were making arguments in that fashion then I'd agree completely. Your logic makes sense. But this is a wiki detailing information from the games. The games directly refer to them as Apollo's foster father and brother, so that's what the wiki should say they are. You can't just change up what the game's themselves have said because you don't agree with the logistics of it. 94.193.119.106 17:50, September 18, 2016 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if he isn't actually, legally adopted. Apollo calls Dhurke his faster father, Dhurke calls himself Apollo's foster father, the game considered Dhurke his foster father, and he raised him for quite a number of years as his own son. I'd say he can certainly be called his foster father, whether it's legally correct or not. TaylorHyuuga (talk) 18:16, September 18, 2016 (UTC)