(This all seems so horribly familiar somehow...)
——“Rise from the Ashes”
这是梯子还是长梯？
主角和其调查伙伴关于争辩梯子 和长梯不同点的对话是在“逆转裁判”系列除《大逆转裁判：成步堂龙之介的冒险》之外的作品中反复出现的笑话桥段。
The first instance of this is found in Turnabout Samurai, the third case of Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. Upon examination, the protagonist and the partner character engage in an argument on the usage of the words "ladder" and "stepladder", and the difference between them. One usually accuses the other of being too absorbed in the details instead of looking at the big picture and realizing that stepladders and other ladders serve roughly the same function. The latter's response to this varies. Similar gags involving other items have been used on occasion over the series, with The Great Ace Attorney duology in particular primarily using a "shovel vs. spade" variation of the debate instead.
In its original incarnations, Phoenix Wright makes the distinction and Maya Fey warns him not to rely on "narrow-minded cultural assumptions". However, in later instances of the gag, the protagonist fills Maya Fey's role.
Although such a conversation does not directly occur in the crossover Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney, two references are made to the recurring joke.
The console/PC ports of the Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy, the Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney Trilogy, The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles, and the Ace Attorney Investigations Collection all have achievements/accolades for finding every ladder vs. stepladder conversation. These are respectively named "Ladders Vs. Step-Ladders", "Ladders and Stepladders", "The Top Rung", and "Ladders and Step-Ladders". The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles also has a similar accolade called "Ace of Spades" for finding all shovel vs. spade conversations.
引文[ | ]
以下内容，除了逆转123，暂时仅包含简体中文的内容或未翻译，不包含繁体中文的内容。（2025年1月26日23时05分）
《逆转裁判：复苏的逆转》[ | ]
啊，是梯子。
那个叫做梯凳啦。
哪里不一样 ?
不是都差不多吗 ?
不是都差不多吗 ?
要看清事物的本质喔，
成步堂哥。
成步堂哥。
哈哈哈。
——“逆转将军超人”
宝月茜
啊，有个梯子。
那个叫梯凳。
宝月茜
有什么不一样 ?
请你从科学的角度证明。
请你从科学的角度证明。
科、科学的角度……
宝月茜
看待事物要看本质喔，
成步堂先生。
成步堂先生。
（为什么呢……
总觉得这段对话好令人怀念）
总觉得这段对话好令人怀念）
——“复苏的逆转”
《逆转裁判2》[ | ]
啊，是爬梯。
那是工作梯喔。
有什么差别吗 ?
不都是一样的东西。
不都是一样的东西。
要注重事物的本质喔，
成步堂哥。
成步堂哥。
哈哈哈。
（……感觉以前好像
有过类似的对话……）
有过类似的对话……）
——“逆转马戏团”
《逆转裁判3》[ | ]
噢，是梯子。
这个叫梯凳。
哪里不一样 ?
不是都差不多吗 ?
不是都差不多吗 ?
我觉得，看待事物要注重
本质啊，成步堂哥。
本质啊，成步堂哥。
哈哈哈。
（……怎么感觉这段对话
似曾相识呢……）
似曾相识呢……）
——“遭窃的逆转”
啊。有个梯子。
那个叫梯凳啊。
有什么不一样 ? 差不多啊。
（……这东西的名字，
是不是没什么人知道啊 ?）
是不是没什么人知道啊 ?）
就是有你这种人，
整天只会挑这种小毛病。
整天只会挑这种小毛病。
我家附近的杂货店老板，
也是这种人。
也是这种人。
我每次跟他说 “我要买莴苣” ，
他都会说 “那是卷心菜” 。
他都会说 “那是卷心菜” 。
在我看来都是差不多的东西 !
完全不一样吧 !
梯子跟梯凳，也只差一个字 !
我跟你说，我们看事情的时候，
更要注重事物的本质。
更要注重事物的本质。
这是我这位前辈给你的建议 !
（……我才不想听你的建议。）
——“《华丽的逆转》”
《逆转裁判4》[ | ]
Look, it's a folding ladder.
Polly! That's called a "stepladder"! C'mon!
...A stepladder? How is that different from a regular ladder then?
It's a much more complex piece of machinery. It's like two ladders stuck together!
...So you admit that basically it's a ladder, right?
Wait... Huh?
You have to look past the form... at the essence of the thing.
Er... Can we talk about something else?
——“Turnabout Corner”
Look, a ladder. I guess they need one to work on the lights and such.
Why don't they use a stepladder? I prefer stepladders, really ...Is that so wrong?
Not wrong, just... well, why do you prefer stepladders?
...... They're so much more flexible than plain old ladders!
...... (I prefer my ladders rigid and stable, thank you.)
——“Turnabout Serenade”
Huh, another ladder.
Actually, it's technically a stepladder.
Well hello, Ms. Fancy Pants! Please forgive my lack of ladder discrimination.
! ......
宝月茜
I'm less worried about the stepladder, and more worried about why it's there.
(Why is the ladder there? Well, to climb, right? To reach something on the ceiling?)
...... I still say it's a stepladder.
——“Turnabout Serenade”
《逆转裁判5》[ | ]
希月心音
There really is no escaping here through the air duct.
And here we went through all the trouble of bringing a ladder to check it out.
希月心音
That's not a ladder, Apollo. It's a stepladder.
What's the difference? They both have the word ladder in them.
希月心音
What's the difference. ..?.. .. .. .. .. ..Oh, I know! Let's play rock, paper scissors to decide who's right!
You're way too competitive. And it's not even related to the original issue, either!
——“The Monstrous Turnabout”
《逆转裁判6》[ | ]
Maya Fey moving on?
I'm going to keep it real from now on. And you should, too, Nick.
(I thought you said I was the boring one because I was "keeping it real"...?)
Sorry, I guess I've outgrown that stepladder argument we always have...
I think you mean "ladder," Maya.
——“The Rite of Turnabout”
《逆转检察官》[ | ]
Different people. Similar conversation.
Hmm... A ladder.
Actually, that's a step-ladder.
They're the exact same thing.
No way! From their structure up, they're totally different! But of course, from a thief's perspective, the best kind of ladder is the rope-ladder. A step-ladder is much too heavy to carry around, after all.
(And from a prosecutor's perspective, any type of ladder is guilty... of being dangerous during an earthquake.)
——“燃烧的逆转”
《逆转检察官2》[ | ]
逐鸭一彻
...What's the matter? Something weird about the ladder?
御剑信
It's not a ladder, Detective Badd. It's a step-ladder.
逐鸭一彻
...Same difference...
御剑信
Far from it, actually. You'd know if you observed their basic natures more closely.
信乐盾行
Amazing, Mr. E! I'll have to remember this for future reference!
——“传承的逆转”
《大逆转裁判2：成步堂龙之介的觉悟》[ | ]
爱丽丝·华生
Oh! That's a funny place for a little ladder.
.........
爱丽丝·华生
What is it? Is something wrong?
No, it's just that in Japanese, we have a totally different word for a ladder that folds in half like that.
爱丽丝·华生
We do in English, too, you know. It's a stepladder, or just 'steps'. So be careful of making assumptions about other cultures, Runo. That's how wars are started.
(...I didn't realise stepladders were an international point of contention. But the writer makes an astute point.)
——“The Return of the Great Departed Soul”
御琴羽寿沙都
Ah, there's a stepladder there, look.
Oh... Yes... A stepladder...
御琴羽寿沙都
I think perhaps we should let the proprietress know that someone's left it out. The stepladder, I mean.
.........
御琴羽寿沙都
Is something wrong?
(Why do I feel as though I just managed to sidestep an argument...?)
——“The Return of the Great Departed Soul”
《雷顿教授VS逆转裁判》[ | ]
They've built a house up on a tree. How inventive. They must use a series of ladders to reach the top.
I knew you were smart, Professor! You do NOT want to hear Nick's thoughts on ladders, trust me.
——“A Taste of Despair”
According to this floor plan...there's a bell on the floor above this one.
Well, it is a bell tower... It'd be kind of strange if there was no bell.
Yeah, but...there's no sign of any ladder leading up to the next level.
Or even a stepladder... (Does that mean the bell can't be rung?)
——“The Story's End”
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Kodansha Comics manga)[ | ]
Russi Clover
This is the unisex restroom ♪
Huh? What's a ladder doing next to the restroom?
It's a stepladder.
——“Turnabout Power vs. Supernatural Power”
Non-ladder/stepladder variations[ | ]
逆转裁判3[ | ]
Maya Fey
Whoa! It's a huge hearth!
Phoenix Wright
That's a fireplace.
Maya Fey
So? What's the difference? You need to stop judging things based on narrow-minded cultural assumptions, Nick!
Phoenix Wright
R-Right... sorry.
——“The Stolen Turnabout”
Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney[ | ]
Apollo Justice
Is that... a pufferfish?
Trucy Wright
Apollo! That's clearly a porcupinefish!
Apollo Justice
...They're not the same thing?
Trucy Wright
You know what gets me? They're got all these needles, right? But what's protecting that soft spot on the lower belly there? Nothing!
Apollo Justice
(...Must remember to keep Trucy away from small, round fish.)
——“Turnabout Succession”
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Spirit of Justice[ | ]
Athena Cykes
This is probably what made Uendo lose consciousness!
Simon Blackquill
Ah, yes, the saké. And isn't it just like Master Toneido to pick a fine brand like "Camel."
Athena Cykes
"Saké"...? Oh, you mean "rice wine"?
Uendo Toneido
Oh, please. Don't call it "rice wine." That's so unsophisticated. And it's not even "wine." Hmph. Silly girl.
Simon Blackquill
I must agree -- you need to become more cultured, Athena.
Athena Cykes
Tomayto, tomahto. It's made of rice, and people get drunk from drinking it, right?
Simon Blackquill
It's called "saké." End of story.
Athena Cykes
Fine! "Saké" it is, then. (¡Ay, caramba! Everybody's so touchy about these things!)
——“Turnabout Storyteller”
Apollo Justice
Is this a bird?
Dhurke Sahdmadhi
It looks like an airplane to me.
Apollo Justice
No, there couldn't have been any planes back when this was made.
Dhurke Sahdmadhi
Yes, but it has wings and both horizontal and vertical stabilizers. That makes it an airplane.
Apollo Justice
No, it's definitely a bird.
Dhurke Sahdmadhi
Open your eyes, son... As a lawyer, your job is to see the true nature of things.
Apollo Justice
(I still say it's a bird.)
——“Turnabout Revolution”
Athena Cykes
Eeewww... Is that a newt?
Apollo Justice
Come on, Athena. Can't you tell a gecko when you see one?
Athena Cykes
What's the difference?
Apollo Justice
Geckos like to live in houses, while newts prefer to be outside near water. They're totally different creatures.
Athena Cykes
Well, how do you know this one wasn't caught outside near some water? It could very well be a gecko.
Apollo Justice
No, I'm pretty sure it's a newt.
Athena Cykes
Oh, so then you agree it's a newt, Apollo?
Apollo Justice
Ack! (I fell right into her trap!)
Phoenix Wright
You're both wrong. It's just a plain old lizard.
——“Turnabout Revolution”
Apollo Justice
(There's a golden lion keeping watch at the entrance.)
Apollo Justice
...That frog looks like it's cowering under the lion's glare.
Athena Cykes
Really? 'Cause to me, it looks like the frog is glaring at the lion.
Apollo Justice
Come on, Athena. How does that make any sense?
Athena Cykes
Huh? I just call 'em as I see 'em.
Apollo Justice
(I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.)
——“Turnabout Revolution”
Phoenix Wright
This must be the lantern the body was found in. Ellen managed to move it quite a ways. It looks like... a cow, but it's pretty badly broken.
Maya Fey
That's not a cow, Nick. That's Pegasus, the flying horse.
Phoenix Wright
No way. It's definitely a cow. It's got horns and everything.
Maya Fey
But look, it has wings! Cows don't have wings. So it's Pegasus, I tell you!
Phoenix Wright
Hmm...
Maya Fey
Oh, I know! That pamphlet should tell us! Let's see... Apparently, it's called a "Pegamoo."
Phoenix Wright
I-I did not see that coming.
Maya Fey
Yet somehow, the name really captures the essence of what this creature is, you know?
——“Turnabout Time Traveler”
Ace Attorney Investigations: Miles Edgeworth[ | ]
Dick Gumshoe
That's a really big floaty! But isn't it a bit too early in the year for swimming?
Miles Edgeworth
Detective, that is not for swimming. It's a lifesaver.
Dick Gumshoe
So you can't swim with one of these?
Miles Edgeworth
No... I mean, I suppose you could, but that's not what they are intended for...
Dick Gumshoe
Well then, see, it's the same as a floaty! You shouldn't go around confusing people, sir!
Miles Edgeworth
(... Why do I feel like I've just kicked a puppy?)
——“Turnabout Airlines”
Ace Attorney Investigations 2: Prosecutor's Gambit[ | ]
Kay Faraday
Weird having something like this in a prison, huh? A cage inside a cage...
Miles Edgeworth
Technically, Kay, a prison isn't made up of cages, but cells.
Kay Faraday
What's the difference!? No offense, Mr. Edgeworth, but you've gotta look at the basic nature of things more.
Miles Edgeworth
Yes, and the basic nature of an investigation is the pursuit of accurate facts and information.
——“The Captive Turnabout”
The Great Ace Attorney: Adventures[ | ]
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
That spade has been in here since we started renting the place.
御琴羽寿沙都
Oh, that's not a spade, Naruhodo-san. It's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
No, shovels are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's a spade.
御琴羽寿沙都
No, spades are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
...I don't want to dig a hole for myself. So let's leave it.
——“The Adventure of the Unspeakable Story”
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
That spade has been in here since we started renting the place.
爱丽丝·华生
Runo! That's not a spade, it's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
Ah. You're a shoveller, are you? I had a feeling you'd pick me up on that.
爱丽丝·华生
Oh no...a pick is something else entirely.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
(...Now I've dug myself into an even deeper hole.)
——“The Adventure of the Unspeakable Story”
The Great Ace Attorney 2: Resolve[ | ]
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
The office spade... Now that Susato-san's gone, the shovellers aren't represented to correct me. ......... Maybe I'll have to do it myself. 'That's not a spade, Naruhodo-san; it's a shovel!'
——“The Memoirs of the Clouded Kokoro”
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
Perhaps we should put this spade away somewhere.
御琴羽寿沙都
That's not a spade, Naruhodo-san; it's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
No, shovels are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's a spade.
御琴羽寿沙都
No, spades are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
......... Well, it doesn't really matter, does it?
御琴羽寿沙都
You're so right, Naruhodo-san. We mustn't quarrel over such trifles.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
On reflection then, I think I'll leave this spade where it is.
御琴羽寿沙都
Yes, I think that's for the best. We may need a shovel when we're working in the garden.
——“The Memoirs of the Clouded Kokoro”
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
The office spade... Now that Miss Susato's gone, the shovellers aren't represented to correct me. ......... Maybe I'll have to do it myself. 'That's not a spade, Mr Naruhodo; it's a shovel!'
爱丽丝·华生
Ah, so you're a spader, are you, Runo? What, you want to battle it out?
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
(Alright, I'm not going to argue with a native English speaker...who has some kind of gun...)
——“The Return of the Great Departed Soul”
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
Thinking back, that spade's been in here since we first moved in, hasn't it?
御琴羽寿沙都
I'm sure I've told you before, Mr Naruhodo. It's not a spade; it's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
No, shovels are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's a spade.
御琴羽寿沙都
No, spades are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's...a...shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
(The great spade-shovel war rages on...)
——“The Return of the Great Departed Soul”
御琴羽寿沙都
What a large shovel... He's holding it rather ominously, isn't he? What on earth was the man doing with a shovel in a graveyard in the middle of the night?
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
Um...Miss Susato...
御琴羽寿沙都
Yes?
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
That's...a spade, isn't it?
御琴羽寿沙都
......... No, it's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
No, no, shovels are for digging. That's for scooping up loose material. It's a spade.
御琴羽寿沙都
We've been through this, Mr Naruhodo. It's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
No no no. Although...we haven't considered trowels...
御琴羽寿沙都
......... We've allowed ourselves to be distracted, I feel. Perhaps we should concentrate on what the man was doing with the implement.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
(So we're going to bury the hatchet?) You're right, though... What was the man doing in the graveyard in the first place, that's the real question.
——“The Return of the Great Departed Soul”
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
The spade is still here, look.
御琴羽寿沙都
Please, Mr Naruhodo. It's not a spade, as I think you well know. It's a shovel.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
(It didn't take long to reignite that old argument.)
御琴羽寿沙都
Ah, I have an idea! Let's give the implement a name, like Professor Harebrayne named his tools.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
Ooh! I never thought of doing that.
御琴羽寿沙都
From now on, let's call it 'Ryunosuke'.
Ryunosuke Naruhodo
No no no no! It's clearly much more of a 'Susato'! (The old argument has taken a new and unexpected turn, it seems...)
——“Twisted Karma and His Last Bow”Cultural references[ | ]
- In the 2009 point-and-click adventure game Another Code: R – A Journey into Lost Memories the player can examine a stepladder in a boathouse. Upon doing so, protagonist Ashley Mizuki Robbins calls it a ladder, before correcting herself and remembering that it's actually a stepladder. She then ponders what the difference even is between the two. This was likely intended as a reference to the running Ace Attorney joke.
- Birth ME Code is another investigative mystery game that references the debate, although the character Ancora fails to get anyone to engage in the debate with her.
- The 2015 adventure game Aviary Attorney is a storyboard attorney game like Ace Attorney set in 1840s France, which contains many references to and parodies of Ace Attorney, including the main characters Jayjay Falcon and Sparrowson referencing the stepladder debate during a search for clues.
- In the 2021 adventure game Buddy Mission Bond, the character Mokuma can examine a stepladder during an infiltration section in Chapter Four and question whether it is a ladder or a stepladder.